Alex Jones is not our ally and not our friend

April 26, 2009

The old saying goes “you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.”

Its a pretty straightforward admonition to be careful with whom you associate, lest you be tarred by their behaviour and judged by your association with them. It is for this reason I want to appeal to those of us in the libertarian movement – left or right, miniarchist or anarchist – to studiously and strictly avoid associating with Alex Jones.

Jones is, to put it bluntly, a paranoid conspiracy theorist whose grasp on reality surely needs to be questioned.  He has in the past attempted to rebuild the Branch Davidian compound, to infiltrate the Bilderberger Group and Bohemian Grove.  Lately he is the loudest purveyor of New World Order idiocy and 9-11 Truth.

His latest pronouncement was that the swine flu outbreak in Mexico “was cooked up in a lab”, created by the government as a weapon. Of course, as Brad Spangler points out, if you know even a minimal amount about virology and how labs search for virii, then the pronouncements are not nefarious at all. They merely tell us matter of factly how a lab determines what strain of influenza we are dealing with. It is the same process that has been used to determine every new flu strain for the last 50 years.

This incident show just how deluded and paranoid Jones is. And clearly how stupid.

And yet, I see that people like Ron Paul, Peter Schiff and Judge Napolitano are regulars on his radio show. These respected libertarians even glad hand with Jones. And when those of us who are trying to use logic and reason to advocate for libertarianism and market anarchy try to present the excellent arguments of these men, we have to try to explain away why they associate with a madman like Jones.

I understand, strategically, that his radio show reaches a large number of people. But is it worth it? Does libertarianism really need the kind of “help” that people who believe Jones’ paranoid delusions would offer? Ask Sheldon Richman how productive his appearance on the Glenn Beck show went (a show only slightly less paranoid than Jones’ but paranoid nonetheless).

Jones, Beck and others like them are not libertarians. They do not have our interests at heart. They wish only to use our anti-government message to further their ends. That could be money-making self-promotion (as is likely the case with Beck) or it could be pure paranoid conspiracy nonsense (as is exactly the case with Jones).

I am an anarchist, a libertarian, an Austrian economics follower and a devout skeptic dedicated to reason and evidence. It was this devotion to reason and evidence that lead me to become a libertarian in the first place. Why then would I condone appealing to conspiracy nuts with no critical thinking faculties in order to promote libertarianism?

I am asking that folks like Peter Schiff, Ron Paul, Judge Napolitano and others avoid giving credibility to people like Alex Jones at the cost of their own.  I am asking that they actually be more critical of these people and to actively call them on their nonsense.

As long as the genral public think we are finge and fanatics like Jones, they will never consider out message in any serious way. And they will think we are fringe so long as we keep associating with them.

Don’t lay down with those dogs.

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45 Responses to “Alex Jones is not our ally and not our friend”

  1. True Patriot Says:

    Just curious, do you beleive that there is a New World Order that is trying to change our country into a super state, or north american union?

  2. Whatever Says:

    If you are going to call people crazy at least come up with some evidence that proves your point. All you are doing here is bashing someone with your words with zero information for people to take away as to why other than you don’t like them.

  3. Sam Adams Says:

    “He has in the past attempted to rebuild the Branch Davidian compound, to infiltrate the Bilderberger Group and Bohemian Grove. Lately he is the loudest purveyor of New World Order idiocy and 9-11 Truth.”

    Very curious about True Patriot’s question above…. you don’t believe that a New World Order is upon us?

    You believe the official version of 9-11?

    You stated you are a “devout skeptic dedicated to reason and evidence.”

    I do not see any reason or evidence in this posting that Alex Jones’ efforts you cited will damage the credibility of his guests.

    I am certain that Alex Jones would be happy to have you come on his show to refute his efforts with your “reason and evidence” as that would be a service to us all who are in search of the truth.

  4. Josh Says:

    Ugh. Specimens collected from infected persons are always “cultured” in the lab because that’s how, ya know, we figure out what they are. We do Gram stains that way too. These people are idiots.

  5. True Patriot Says:

    Hey Josh, your a medical student in Canada right? Is there any buzz up there about any form of a North American Union pressing? Not sure with all your medical studies you have had time to keep up with things such as that.
    I was somewhat surprised at your statement which left the reader to ponder what exactly you meant.

    May God keep you close.

  6. theconverted Says:

    True Patriot and Sam Adams,

    North American Union – yes, I’ve been keeping abreast of the Security and Prosperity Partnership (SPP) as they call it. Is it the nefarious New World Order? No, it is however a typical instance of corporatism that allows for the free movement of goods but not people (or labour) for the benefit of corporations. By using the coercive power of the state. Other than that, I hardly see how this has anything to do with the idea of “New World Order”.

    9-11 Truth. On September 11, 2001 19 religious fanatics, funded by OBL crashed planes into the World Trade Centre, using a low-tech, suicide mission that exploited holes in airline security. That was the conspiracy. I will side with the considerable scientific evidence, as presented in Skeptic Magazine last year and in Popular Mechanics the year before, that refutes EVERYTHING in the 9-11 Truth movement. There were no explosives, robot planes, shooting down of United 93 or deliberate demolitions of Building 7. All of that is the result of the fevered imaginations of ignorant people. Should any evidence arise that can show any of these assertions that can stand up to even minimal scrutiny, I will happily change my mind. So far, none has.

    Of course, I do not completely believe the “official” investigation either. I suspect there was a lot of incompetence going around the Bush administration. It could be that the FBI and CIA knew in advance of the plot and were trying to turn one of the conspirators but couldn’t and mistakenly allowed the plot to go forward. I think there is some evidence that Mossad was on the trail of the 19 in the US and either failed to warn the US of the attacks or that some in the US security circles failed to take the warnings seriously.

    That means any conspiracy is simply to cover up typical government incompetence and negligence. The government and the state is not this all-powerful entity trying to control us, it is a group of incompetents.

    Remember, this is the same people that couldn’t keep a secret about the happenings at Abu Ghraib, the NSA wiretaps or was organized well enough to send help to New Orleans. Sorry but you expect these same folks to be able to keep such a secret that some how only a few unknown internet folks can figure out?

    I’ll stand with Penn and Teller on this conspiracy theory stuff – its Bullshit.

    Sam,

    “I do not see any reason or evidence in this posting that Alex Jones’ efforts you cited will damage the credibility of his guests.”

    My single example should be enough of a hint. As Josh said and as Brad Spangler said, there is noting nefarious about what the doctor in the InfoWars clip said. “Cultured” does not mean “created”, it means grown. Influenza is a virus that is a well-known zoonotic pathogen that originates in both pigs and birds and to jump species on a regular basis. “Culturing” is how they know what strain it is and thus, what is the best way to fight it. It is similar to the way they determine which vaccine mix will work best in a given flu season. And the CDC and various Immunologist around the world have been warning for years another pandemic is expected – it was previously thought that SARS and H5N1 Bird Flu was that pandemic.

    But what did Jones do when he saw that clip? Did he take a n hour or so to actually research what the doctor said? No. He was clearly ignorant, but since it sounded scary, and it seemed to fit with his conspiracy theory view of the world he assumed that is what it meant and he ran with it. That is, he already had his conclusion in mind (there is a New World Order conspiracy) and he tried to find “facts” to fit it, rather than gathering and checking our his facts and drawing his conclusions from there.

    He was not being critical. He is wrong.

    And given how he still maintains his 9-11 truth beliefs in the face of evidence to the contrary, I can only conclude 2 things:

    1. He is purposely being dishonest about this because its a good way to get ignorant, uncritical people to listen to his show or buy his DVD (and thus make him lots of money)

    2. He really believes this stuff despite all evidence to the contrary and will uncritically accept anything or jump to any conclusion so long as it supports he pre-determined belief.

    He is either a charlatan or he is delusional. Do we want either in a movement trying to get people to think critically about the role of government in their lives and come to the reasonable conclusion about libertarianism and anarchy?

    I find it ironic how you are critical of me, demanding evidence from me regarding Alex Jones, but do not hold Jones to the same standard of evidence. Is it perhaps that because he is also anti-government that you allow confirmation bias to override your faculty to think critically?

    • Sam Adams Says:

      to: theconverted

      Thanks for your reply to my inquiry.

      While I agree there is massive incompetence in government, your level of trust that any conspiracy is limited to covering up said incompetency is, in my opinion, unwarranted and unsupported.

      We will just have to agree to disagree.

      The term conspiracy is much abused and has been co-opted by the powers that be in order to discredit anyone who asks serious questions of the “official” version of events.

      Let’s imagine that everything you say about Alex Jones is accurate.

      That the “swine flu” is just a naturally occurring phenomenon and that a world wide pandemic is feasible.

      Do you also trust your government to properly and without any ulterior agenda handle the situation by rationing the “cure”? Really?

      But, I am off topic of your original statement… for folks like Dr. Paul and Judge Nap. to steer clear of Alex Jones…

      I think you are way off base on your assessment that there is no New World Order strategy other than corporatism joining statism.

      But we all have to sleep at night… whatever works for you. Something tells me Dr. Paul and Judge Nap. sleep fine, even after being a guest on Alex Jones’ show.

      • theconverted Says:

        Well Sam, if they sleep fine after associating with the likes of Jones, they they should not be surprised when lots of people – regular folks and others – who would be great allies in moving libertarianism forward ignore or scoff at their arguments. Like it or not, most of Jones’ stuff is provably untrue (as I demonstrated only with the latest nonsense) and he has no credibility. If Schiff or Paul continue to appear with him, they they will be stained with the same lack of credibility. And that will condemn us, just as SEK III insistence on hanging with Holocaust deniers and historical revisionists in the 80′s condemned agorism to the fringes until after his death.

        Libertarianism is right because it has evidence and reason behind it. We don’t need to stoop to wallowing with irrational and illogical people like Jones. It will not help us, rather it will hurt us.

        As for my view on conspiracies, I am a skeptic. I follow the evidence. Like it or not there is almost NO evidence for any of the various conspiracy theories Jones pimps and what little there is does not stand up to even the most mild scrutiny. The evidence points to the so-called “official version” being closest to the truth. Not completely true, but closet to it.

        Do not let your distrust of government, as noble as it is, lead you to conclusions unsupported by facts.

        Let’s imagine that everything you say about Alex Jones is accurate.

        No need to imagine, it is.


        That the “swine flu” is just a naturally occurring phenomenon and that a world wide pandemic is feasible.

        It is. We had swine flu outbreak in 1978, when I was 11. Perhaps you aren’t old enough to remember it. The last pandemic was the one in 1919 that killed more people than WWI, and spread without the convenience of modern, immediate air transport. It is in fact even MORE feasible than ever before in history.


        Do you also trust your government to properly and without any ulterior agenda handle the situation by rationing the “cure”? Really?

        And how can you draw that conclusion from anything I have written? Just because I don’t believe the unsupported ravings of Alex Jones does not mean I am a shill for the state.

        I have no doubt the government will try to find some way to take advantage of this, to try rationing Tamiflu and other anti-virals or even surgical masks. They will no doubt, make this worse rather than better. But make no mistake, there is no “cure”. And I fully expect the “crisis” to be used as a reason for more state interference. That is the nature of the state, not a conspiracy.

        It is up to those of us with more reasoned and rational approaches to argue our case based on the facts, rather than get into bed with fringe elements with other motives and agendas who purposely eschew reason to meet their ends.

  7. theconverted Says:

    I expect the markets to take a beating this week because of the outbreak. This is a completely expected reaction, based on the principles of human action. It will not be some kind of evidence of a conspiracy by the Illuminati to influence (pardon the pun) the market to make money.

  8. True Patriot Says:

    Hmm, you say BS. I don’t think so. There are many things on the level of evidence that support something else other than what was portrayed to be the truth. Government incompitence may be part of it but you have to understand the government and it’s agencies. History alone should state something as to what they are capable of doing. Investigations like that don’t take a few hours but months to find villans like that. Do you remember how long they were here before the attacks? Flight training? where they lived, what they boasted about, but yet they didn’t have an incling of tracking them. That both towers were shut down a few days prior to the attacks from the 50th floor up for maintenance? Thinking outside the box makes for a good investigator. Checking the motives good or bad. Of all things found nearly immeadiately after the attacks was one of the hijacker’s drivers license nearly untouched. I guess he just threw that out the side door right before impact. Not to mention the two very huge titanium engines on the plane that struck the pentagon that left no hole, and the pilot had to have flown 2′ above and adjacent to the ground for at least 1/2 mile to come in at the angle that it did, otherwise the damage would have been much worse and higher. They didn’t train on commercial jets at the flight school and those big planes are not toys or fighter jets, you would have to practice this. And don’t simply say the wings folder back on impact is why there are no holes for the engines, rewind the towers video and see that those wings did not fold back either. You are simply what they expected the public to believe. A sheep with no understanding of wolves.

    Peace to you.

  9. theconverted Says:

    True Patriot,

    I don’t wish to make this into a 9-11 Truth thread, but suffice it to say, if you can get a hold of Skeptic Magazine volume 12 number 04, every one of your concerns is addressed, by scientists, demolitions experts and actual news footage from the day of the hole and of the engines from the plane that hit the Pentagon.

    While some of what you say would seem incredible to the untrained eye, it is actually common – often in debris fields of plane crashes on land and in the oceans they find all kinds of small personal effects such as wallets, watches etc that help identify victims.

    All of your concerns have been examined and debunked, if you’d care to look.

    I still hold that the incredible coordination and secrecy that would be required to simultaneously have this occur in a very public manner yet remain so secret is simply not possible in the government.

    40 people can’t torture prisoners at Abu Ghraib without the pictures leaking onto the internet within months and conclusively proven, are you seriously thinking something of this magnitude can happen?

    If so, give up now because the government is so omniscient and omnipotent that we can’t possibly win.

    Personally, having worked in side the Canadian government on occasion, don’t consider the government to be that powerful or smart.

    Of course, when real evidence that can stand up to scrutiny come along, I will gladly change my mind.

    I am not a sheep, I am a rational skeptic. I don’t believe anything without evidence and all of the 9-11 Truth “evidence” is sorely lacking. Perhaps before bandying about ad hominems, you should consider your own motives – do you go for 9-11 Truth conspiracy theories because the preponderance of evidence supports it, of because of confirmation bias? Are you prepared to hold the word of a radio DJ over the findings of numerous independent scientists and investigators simply because it coincides with your anti-government fervor?

    Now who is the sheep?

  10. Rev.paperboy Says:

    “He is either a charlatan or he is delusional.”

    meh, a little from column A, a little from column B — they aren’t mutually exclusive propositions. Alex Jones has been a complete nutter for years – how and why he still has any credibility with anyone is beyond me.

  11. MW Says:

    For me — it is a tough call on Alex Jones. Sometimes he is right about some things that nobody else has noticed or is talking about.

    But sometimes he is SOOOOO off base that it’s hard to take it all seriously. I’ll give you an example. Jones broke the story several months ago about supra-inter-agency organization being set up and co-ordinated by homeland security that listed a number of “flags” to watch for in potential domestic terrorists,

    One of those flags was Libertarian Party bumper stickers – anybody who expressed “Anti-Government” sentiment.. and things like that,.

    I spent quite a bit of time trying to verify what Jones was reporting. Sure enough –months later, the mainstream news had found the story and it was verified…

    I believe that only happened because people became aware of the memos that Alex Jones reported on and started raising holy hell.

    So in that sense — what Jones did was invaluable.

    Here’s my rule of thumb for anybody that I see making claims that I find to be at times disengenous, or patently false– and who I do not know personally well enough to be able to actually gauge their level of rationality in a concrete way…

    As Ronald Reagan famously said “Trust… but verify”

    I’ve listened to Jones enough to believe that he is a sincere person. I think he gets carried away sometimes, and I think he needs to take a break from his non-stop manic efforts, and slow down… and be more cautious and careful.

    But he is one of my canary’s in the coal mine people.

    So long as he’s still able to beak off – and so long as he manages to pull off stuff like he did with those homeland security docs — I will keep an eye on what he floats.

    What I do appreciate about Jones is that his ranting and raving is never based on the false-dichotomy of left-vs-right.

    The fact that he is able to operate with that level of insight — (which is nearly impossible today) means he might come up with something insightful that it would be worth my while to pay attention.

    If Jones goes silent… I’ll be more worried about things than I currently am.

    Put it that way.

  12. MW Says:

    BTW mike — what is your take on what happened at Waco?

  13. MW Says:

    Also…

    I don’t think I have mentioned this in the past when we have discussed things – but there is a real and practical distinction that needs to be made between mistakes in judgement vs mistakes in morality.

    A mistake in judgement — is something that occurs because either we have incorrect information, and/or we have reached incorrect conclusions based on that information.

    A mistake in morality is when we don’t care what the correct information is– and we act in such a way as to actually harm others. (I’m talking instigation of force or fraud stuff here)

    It’s a good idea when looking at people, and what they believe in when making up your mind about their character- to assume the former – until such a time as the have some very concrete proof of the latter.

    There is nothing per-say immoral with holding an incorrect point of view–Nobody derives their philosophy a-priori..

    We all make mistakes — we all learn. It depends on how we handle our mistakes that determines what kind of character we have.

    And in conjuction with this… never assume malevolence in people when mere stupidity is gives an ample explanation for their mistakes.

  14. theconverted Says:

    MW,

    I have no doubt that the Feds over-reacted and that was the cause of the entire fiasco. I have to ask, why the hell were they their in the first place.

    The problem was, guilty or innocent, as soon as they killed those ATF agent’s their fate was sealed.

    I think that Koresh was a madman, along the lines of Jim Jones. But I don’t think he or any of his followers should have died.

    And I really haven’t paid that much attention to that particular story to have formed an opinion as to what started the fire. I lean toward the Branch Davidians setting the fire themselves, as that fits with their Messianic, Apocalyptic ideas.

    I am, of course, always open to good evidence to the contrary.

  15. MW Says:

    “The problem was, guilty or innocent, as soon as they killed those ATF agent’s their fate was sealed.”

    Before this goes further… how much did you pay attention to Waco when it was happening — and have you had a chance to revisit it since you have experienced the profound change in your philosophy.

    Did you ever see “Waco – The Rules of Engagement”? — That’s a good starting off point.

    Another place which deserves a look is the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum.

    I have got to tell you — I spent a LOT of time on Waco.. And my conclusion is that there was absolutely NOTHING constitutional, or morally acceptable that was done by the BATF…

    Another trail of bread-crumbs you need to follow — is the reporting on ATFs congressional review, in the months leading up to WACO.

    Look… The Branch Davidians were not the guilty parties in any of this. The propaganda by the media and the government that the government used to justify what was done that day was fabricated out of whole cloth.

    If Law Enforcement Agencies had wanted to snatch David Koresh – and avoid a potential bloodbath, or stand off — they had ample opportunity to do so when Koresh went into Town — which he did regularly while the Feds were conducting surveillance on him.

    I know that it practically defies belief — that what happened at WACO was an orchestrated sham from start to finish — an attempt by a rapacious government agency desperate to keep it’s pirate boot from Congress… by putting on a show for the American populace at large –to demonstrate how much they were “desperately needed”

    I know that this sounds so monstrously evil… and perhaps even kooky to you.

    But I’ll let the facts of the case, speak for themselves.. if you want to explore this with me.

    When looking at WACO you can not afford to look at what happend that day in a vaccuum.

    The events leading up to Waco went back even further than the Branch Davidians.

    In fact… to really understand what was happening, in it’s proper political and historical context, you would also need to examine the climate and culture that was occuring that created the scenario.

    Start here…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver

    and see where it takes you.

    I’m sorry to be so picky about this… but I really do believe that Waco was a watershed moment in American History. It was an event that dramatically shifted the political climate in America…

    It’s almost an abject lesson in the pernicious evils of the advancement of totalitarianism in the United States.

    I once believed, as you do– that Waco was essentially a bunch of whack-job religious nuts that only got what they deserved.

    I was profoundly changed by what I learned about the nature of government by my examination of Ruby Ridge, Waco, and OKC.

    These events are part of what has led Americans to where they are today with respect to the response of the United States government to what happened on Sept 11th.

    You know me… trust me when I tell you — this issue is a lot more important than almost anybody thinks it is. And there is a very sad, and rather frightening reason for that.

    Good luck.. let me know what you find out.

    Happy Hunting.

  16. MW Says:

    Oh yeah… I dug this up for you too…

    http://somenamedia.blogspot.com/2009/05/archiving-document-for-rational-reasons.html

    The site I accessed it from isn’t letting me to connect – so I grabbed it from the cache

    So the order to examine what happened is Ruby Ridge, The Lamplugh Case, Waco, OKC.

    You’ll see where I’m going with this.

  17. theconverted Says:

    Meaghan,

    By stating “The problem was, guilty or innocent, as soon as they killed those ATF agent’s their fate was sealed” I hope you realize that I agree that they should have been killed, or that the ATF guys should have been killed, but that once that happened during the stand off, it wouldn’t have mattered if Koresh and his followers where right, or if Koresh was actually Jesus, he was marked for death. If not explicitly by the government and by Reno, then certainly by the macho, “thin blue line” mentality of law enforcement.

    But thanks for the links… I will certainly be looking into this. I really didn’t pay that much attention to it at the time as back then I was a young, idealistic social democrat and a bit of a drunk (actually quite a bit of a drunk). So I only know it vaguely from the news and some docs, long after

    As for Jones, I agree his silence would be the canary in the coal mine. My problem with him is his immediate jumping to crazy conclusions based on his ignorance of what he hears.

    Case in point, it is being pimped all over Twitter about his assertion, based on a TV interview with a doctor, that the Swine Flu is engineered. All because the doctors said it was “cultured”. In reality, culturing is how they grow enough virus to be able to identify it. As well from his site there was shock that the virus was “part human, part bird and part pig”. Guess what? All strains of influenza virus are – its zoonotic and jumps species all the time. Its how it mutates. That’s what the “H” in the name like “H1N1″ or “H5N1″ (bird flu) is – human.

    Rather than gathering the facts, he assumes a crazy conspiracies based in his false reading of the information he hears…its nearly pathological.

    And as a result, people don’t get vaccinated, cause the disease to spread and possibly endanger themselves and others.

    All because he is dead wrong.

    I don’t respect those who flaunt critical thinking and science in such a way. It drips of an anti-intellectualism which I abhor.

    Now perhaps he has been right a few times…but I wager he has been way out and completely wrong far more (as in my flu example above).

    And the result is when we try to connect the message of liberty and freedom to regular folks, they see the ravings of Jones and just turn off.

  18. MW Says:

    Like I said — it’s hard for me to gauge his effectiveness at what he is doing — and how I think that it works towards achieving values that I have.

    I understand that he’s spreading incorrect info. I think he’s over-worked himself — spread himself too thin – and so he doesn’t vet things as carefully as he should.

    And I also think it’s irresponsible to jump to the worst possible conclusions about what the govenment does — based on flimsy evidence,

    There is sometimes nothing worse than bad arguments for good ideas. When that happens — critical principles that could be explored are side-tracked in favour of fear-mongering and paranoia.

    The one thing I have noticed is that Jones is provoking people to question some of their deeply cherished and poisonous ideas about the fundamental nature of government.

    True – there is a danger, because he has made so many errors, that having woken people up to the idea that ‘GOVERNMENT’S NOT GOD — OR SANTA CLAUSE” for that matter — people will become disenchanted with libertarianism and drift back to sleep.

    But some people will wake up — they will evolve beyond Alex Jones and they will see the value in exploring these ideas.

    It’s a judgment call really — that’s based on every individuals own perception on tactics, and strategy.

    Here’s another libertarian principle which became dear to my heart – when I was first learning these ideas..

    Not only do we have to give people the freedom and the lattitude to be right — we also have to give them the freedom and lattitude to be wrong.

    Anybody who would make a serious health decision — a life or death decision on the basis of what Alex Jones has to say…

    Well — at a certain point…

    What are you gonna do about those people?

    I regularly see Libertarians promoting ideas that I can see have just as horrific a consequence for millions of people — as what Alex Jones is saying.

    But the only way that is proper to deal with such people — is with reason. And by (as you rightly suggest) excercing our freedoms.
    Freedom to boycott – Freedom to Associate — which includes (as you rightly point out) the freedom to NOT be associated with somebody.

    I don’t think Jones even refer to himself as a libertarian.

    That’s one of the reasons he dosnn’t chap my ass as much as other self-proclaimed libertarians who I think are doing just as much damage as Jones is –but in a different way — and on a different scale, or scope.

    Would I go on his show?

    Maybe.. if it was to debate with him about something that I found objectionable, and he was willing to have an honest discussion.

    Will I buy his Prison Planet TV subscription — I did a couple of years ago…but I haven’t been interested in doing so for a long time. Will I buy his CDs, or Books? Or visit his sponsors — and buy Burkey Water Filters, so he can get his little kick-back?

    Nope.

    I’m already pretty much doing what you want me to do…

    I’ve expressed my values with my money, with my feet, and with my attention.

    Here’s the thing.. I’ve been at this a really really long time now.

    Mike — you have no idea how truly rare, unique and special you are — to have had the intellectual courage to challenge deeply held and important ideas, and open your mind to new possible ways of looking at the world, and your relationship to it,

    What you should know is that… for all the efforts we make, to promote these ideas — we may be lucky if we find ONE Mike (like you every couple of years)

    That’s what we’re up against here.

    What happens — is that radical shift that occured in your consciousness- either happens, or it doesn’t. There’s actually not a whole heck of alot that we can do to make it happen.

    We can lay out the information for people. We can present the evidence, and show people the intellectual tools..

    But none of that matters unless a person is willing to do what you did – pick up the tools, look at the evidence, examine the information — and start to integrate these ideas into their hierarchy of knowledge.

    You can’t ever do that for anybody.
    It just never happens that way.

    Some people are going to get it — some people.. it’s just never gonna happen. You could spend years — laying out everything abolutely perfectly for them…and no matter how proficient you get at explaining these ideas… until they are ready to stare at reality — Hard… and accept it – and then actually begin to think..

    There’s nothing else you can do.
    But watch, and wait.

    So — I don’t spend as much time as I used to worrying about people chasing others away from Liberty. If people are gonna get it –the are gonna get it.

    You’ll see it unfolding.. You’ll see people slowly making those connections you made..

    And this may sound harsh… but some people, have been so intellectually damaged — their thinking processes have been so screwed up — that it’s never gonna happen for them

    The longer you are at it – the more and more you will start to recognize certain sparks in people… certain patterns and themes in their thinking.

    It’s almost like it’s a conceptual ladder – and you can tell, by what a person hold to be true about certain positions… and why they hold them.. which rung they are on — and more importantly, which direction they are heading.

    For some people — who are going in the wrong direction — away from Liberty and towards totalitarianism… away from reason, and towards base-animal, emotionalism…
    It’s just pointless.

    If there is one message that I’ve really appreciated Alex Jones promoting… it’s this “It’s not about left vs right –it’s about right vs wrong”

    That’s like a core principle in libertarian epistemology. If all Alex Jones did was convince thousands of people to drop planet false-dichotomy… (left vs right) – And he did nothing else.. I’d be very grateful to him…

    That one concept… if it starts to take root in somebody’s head, can crack things wide open for people in a way that — all of our nit-picking about the refined and more detailed application of the philosophy of liberty ever will.

    That’s all I’m saying.

  19. theconverted Says:

    I see your point, but I find, on the balance he is more of a liability than a benefit.

    I hope he does help some break their thinking.

    I think there are better ways to do it.

  20. MW Says:

    Sorry — one more thought…

    I understand that Jones is wrong about the government’s role in the swine flu.

    I think the reason Jones is willing to leap to that conclusion is becasuse of the overall contreversy surrounding vaccinations in general. Like it or not — with governments running every aspect of our lives — and recognizing that goverment is stupid and slow to respond to its mistakes (Think Tuskegge Syphillis experiments or even CIA brainwashing of Canadians — both of which were considered far-fetched, kooky and irresponsible to complain about — Until they weren’t. )

    I understand why Jones could jump to some awful conclusion about swineflu.

    Did you pay attention to the contreversy that still surrounds the anthrax attacks that followed in the wake of 9-11

    Charles actually had a friend in DC who was exposed — so we paid close attention…

    I wish that I could look at government and it’s role in these atrocities… and laugh it all off as the ravings of paranoid crazy whackjob l@@ns

    I don’t have that luxury anymore Mike.

    God somedays –I wish I did.

    I know that sounds terrible… but sometimes I actually envy people who float through our world never worrying for a second that Government with even the best of intentions — (to say the least about it’s worst intentions) have done some absolutely horrific things to people.

    Where Alex and I part ways — Is I don’t buy into this idea of a group of shadowy elites
    being responsible for all of the Stupid that government creates. That seems far-fetched an unrealistic to me.

    I don’t think Government is all powerful – all pervasive, omniscient. But I do know that by the sheer depth, weight and breadth of it’s stupidity – that horrible things can happen to people…

    But that’s what’s great about the free exchagnge of ideas. Hopefully — good information, like yours makes it’s way out to those who are looking and paying attention… and some of the damage done by the false claims can be mitigated to some degree,

  21. MW Says:

    Sorry…

    This really is the last thought…

    If there were such a thing actually happening… the early warnings of it would not be from government or mainstream media — but by people like Jones.

    That’s no excuse for the misinformation…

    And yeah — I’ve heard the argument that Jones is possibly a provocateur, or disinfo agent… But I doubt it..very very much.

    It’s even possible that there are people who fed him this bogus swine-flu story to marginalize him, and make him look stupid. Or it could be attempts to condition people to prepare for pandemic… in an effort to decrease the demand for vaccines if the panic starts to de-stabalize the population…If lots of poor and stupid people are afraid of the vaccines…. That leaves more for others… right?

    There’s just so many angles on what’s going on with this guy… or what could be going on.

    I really – honest to god – don’t know what to make of it all… if I seriously sit and think about it all.

    All I know at this point – when I want to really understand what’s going on… is that I don’t believe anything, until it’s been officially denied.
    ;)

  22. theconverted Says:

    Agreed.

    I still side on incompetence over malice, even with the government.
    :)

    The difference between the Tuskeegee Syphillous experiments and MK-Ultra is that there is evidence of these.

    I have no doubt of the kind of evil the government can do that CAN be proved and I don’t think we need to fantasize about them doing things that cannot be proved.

    “Where Alex and I part ways — Is I don’t buy into this idea of a group of shadowy elites
    being responsible for all of the Stupid that government creates. That seems far-fetched an unrealistic to me.”

    Mine as well. In fact, that is the major bone of contention that leads me to question everything he says – he has no credibility.

    As for the anthrax attacks, well, it is a strain created by the US military – that means the government is involved. Now, whether that means their security is bad, or they never did fully account for their weaponized anthrax or if they purposely sent it out to create more terror is another story. I suspect the two former are far more probably than the latter.

    But I’ll happily examine any evidence of the latter.

    BTW, watching the second half of “Waco: Rules of Engagement” right now…chilling…

  23. XYZ Says:

    i’m skeptical but what do you think of this?

  24. theconverted Says:

    XYZ,

    Yawn.

    Sorry, but if hearsay information from a Hollywood producer is all you got, then I stand by my conjecture.

    “Rockefellar”?

    Which “Rockefellar” would that be? Sounds like pandering to the age old parnoia.

    I need better evidence than the say so of a man who creates fiction for a living, even if I may sometimes agree with him.

    One question, if Russo knew about all this 11 months before 9-11, why did he wait for years after 9-11 to talk about it? Why didn’t he go public right away?

    It doesn’t pass the smell test.

    Russo is merely doing whatever it takes to pimp his movies.

    • ancapaaron Says:

      I just read this whole thread, and this particular post caught my eye. This has been brought to my attention a couple times. I’ve also dismissed it as hearsay. He didn’t even bother using his public figure status to try to prevent any of these bad things he heard from happening.

      The same people who have sent me movies like this, have told me Alex Jones predicted 9/11. I went back and reviewed that so called prediction. What Jones was “predicting” was some sort of non-date specific event that was going to happen in the future. It was more or less proof of him being paranoid, not a prediction of the events that took place on 9/11. It wasn’t even close.

      • kaddy Says:

        ancapaaron

        you obviously have not taken a close enough look
        Alex Jones predicted that the Twin Towers would be attacked and blamed on Osama Bin Laden even before the public knew about bin laden and that the United States would invade Afghanistan.
        I suggest you research again

  25. dm Says:

    MW & theconverted, the 2 of you are whats right about freedom of speech. I found your exchange exemplary and a great model constructive debate. The canary in the mineshaft example was thought provoking and caused me to realign my thinking about the necessity of those like Rush who deeply offend me but are important in the scope of free speech.

  26. Haikubandit Says:

    I have recently stumbled upon your blog and have been enjoying it so far.

    I’d agree that Jones is pretty crazy. I think he really became more and more sucked into his conspiracies once he had a viewer base that he couldn’t afford to back down from. I’m not concerned with his fight against the NWO since it is simply not provable, while government oppression and corporatism is.

    However, as far as 9/11 goes I’ve gotten to several points of realization in it’s corruption. After watching many documentaries on the subject with various flaws in them I finally ran into 9/11 Blueprint for Truth. Yeah they all have cheesy names, but this one is different in that it is a lecture presented by a reputable architect. With it coming from an angle other than Popular Mechanics defending the initial story from Loose Change, it brings out simple laws of structural engineering that would have to be broken to prove the original theory. After watching it, it’d be hard to convince me that the buildings were not brought down by controlled demolition. As far as the government being responsible? Who knows. Let me know what you think:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8182697765360042032

  27. AlexJonesHasEvidence Says:

    Alex Jones with his website infowarsDOTccoomm has a radioshow everyday and I listen to it everyday. I am a scientific attitude type of person and I strongly disagree with the views of this article bashing Jones without any evidence. Can you say specificly what Jones has claimed that really didnt happen. Mr Jones is a hardworking truthsearcher. Listen to his show, research the evidence behind his claims and you will see, that the masses arent always right and that corporate media lies and lies and lies and brainwash and brainwash and brainwash. It is not scientific that the masses knows what is going on. A very small percentage of populations are informed…those who are informed will be suprised how much conspiracies actually are goin on against populations by their governments.

  28. Heh Says:

    I listen to AJ daily as well, MSM is just too infantile and insulting. But I’m not a HUGE fan. While I can say I agree with most of what Alex says, I can’t put my faith into anyone 100% anymore. My biggest problem with AJ are the ridiculous fear based commercials that are bombarded every other minute, they are mind numbing, he needs better ad salespeople to say the least and maybe take a lesson from Howard Stern and bunch them up at the end o f the hour as not to torture the audience so much.

    I fact check and look into what he says once in awhile and overall he has a decent record, but he definitely puts his own spin on things and at times outright distorts the truth.

    But I will say one thing. He was the one that opening my eyes to quite a few things and for that I thank and tolerate the imperfections.

  29. P Says:

    I can ensure you that here in europe, a Very Very

  30. P Says:

    ..very large amount of people respect alex jones view on whats really happens.

  31. vanshorkenstein Says:

    CONVERTED – I agree you have made very good points here – I 1st came accross alex jones in the movie Zeitgeist and for a while it seemed like he knew his stuff. But it does seem that he has turned out to be quite the little crackpot and is very likely making otherwise smart people look bad- Thank you for posting this !

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  34. Jamie Says:

    Please, libertarians are never going to win. Most people are statist herd-retards.

    Jones is sure full of shit sometimes, but he’s a better journalist than the New York Times. Do you suggest Ron Paul not appear in their pages?

  35. Roach Says:

    An athiest eh. Evey single person who I have ever argued with over the past seven years about 911, every single one and there has been many, who believe the governments official fairy tale on 911 have all been athiest! Isn’t that bizzare that people who claim to be extreme skeptics and people of science and fact can fall like children in diapers and believe the governments pure bullshit story that would’nt hold up in any court in any country. And they also laugh at the idea of a one world government and a new world order and think the illuminati is a figment of the minds of men like Alex Jones who in my opinion is one of the greatest men today who love freedom and liberty, and if it wasn’t for him we’d all still be in the dark like this tool, these athiest are all the same, they are addicted to not believing, they dont care about facts or reason, it’s in the not believing that gets them off, what a pathetic existence!


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  39. Jgreen Says:

    I have been listening to Alex Jones for the last year agreeing with much of what he says about a world order. However, just yesterday I was listening to AJ and for the first time I turned him off and actually deleted the Infowars app I had on my iPhone. He was talking about the Boy Scouts and how by allowing gay scout leaders and gay members they would be teaching young scouts “how to have gay sex”. He went on to call it a pedophile operation of some sort. I think what the author of this blog is trying to explain is that Alex jones makes things up and sensationalizes news events to the point of ridiculous nonsense. I agree, we as libertarians need to back off Alex jones or the libertarian party is going to lose all of its meaning and become synonymous to the” inbred hillbilly living in his parents basement.”


  40. I understand, strategically, that his radio show reaches a large number of people. But is it worth it? Does libertarianism really need the kind of “help” that people who believe Jones’ paranoid delusions would offer? Ask Sheldon Richman how productive his appearance on the Glenn Beck show went (a show only slightly less paranoid than Jones’ but paranoid nonetheless).


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